Beside Every Calling | Episode 11: When God Calls You To Move On

Episode 11: Leaving Well — When God Calls You to Move On

This is a space for those walking beside a calling—where identity is formed beside it, not lost within it.

In this heartfelt conversation, Debbie and Jill talk honestly about one of the hardest parts of ministry life—knowing when it’s time to leave and step into a new season.

They share personal stories about difficult transitions, unexpected interruptions, moving away from ministries they deeply loved, and the emotional weight ministry spouses often carry through change.

From helping children navigate transitions to grieving what was while embracing what’s next, this episode offers practical wisdom, encouragement, and reassurance for anyone walking through uncertainty or change in ministry life.

They also discuss the importance of leaving well, protecting your heart during transition, and trusting God even when the future feels unclear.

If you are navigating a ministry transition—or sensing a shift coming—this conversation is a reminder that you are not alone, and that God is faithful in every season.

Want to connect with us or share your story?
 Email us at: besideeverycalling@gmail.com

Table Talk Questions:

1.  Have you ever sensed a “release” or transition in your current season of ministry life? 
2.  What emotions are hardest for you during times of transition or change? 
3.  How can you better care for yourself and your family during a ministry move or major life transition? 
4.  Are there relationships or expectations you may need to release as you move into a new season? 
5.  What would it look like to trust God more fully with what’s next?

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Beside Every Calling, where a life you love is formed beside the call and not lost within it. If your date night has occasionally included a hospital stop, or your kids played Let's Baptize in the pool instead of Marco Polo, you understand this rhythm. Across every season, from little ones to leadership transitions to emptiness, we live beside the call while creating lives we love along the way. So please get comfortable and let's dive into today's episode. Welcome to Beside Every Calling. I'm Debbie Daniels. And I'm Jill Barber. And in this podcast, we love to talk about where I our identity is formed beside the calling and not lost within it. And we have discovered a lot of topics. And Jill, I just want to say I am really, really proud of us because we have done something we knew nothing about. We both listened to podcasts, but we have no idea how to start it. And girlfriend, we are on episode 11. Hi five. Yeah. And today we are on another topic that is kind of tough. Episode 11, leaving well when God calls you to move on. And that affects most of us in ministry have had transitions. So in this episode, we really want to talk about one of the hardest and most emotional parts of ministry life, which is leaving. Whether it's a church, a role, or a season, transitions are hard. Even when you know it's the right step, it often comes with a mix of clarity and grief.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Yes. Well, let's just start it off. How do you know when it's time to move?

SPEAKER_01 1:37

We have always both had a sense of release before God told us where we were going. And it made no sense. That's zero zilch. Uh we usually had loved where we were. And then just I don't know. It's a weird inner feeling. And I've talked to again the ministry spouse, ministry spouse, pastors, pastor Steve and Elaine Green. I don't know if you know who they are in the church. They're retired now, but they were our mentors for a really long time. And we spent on staff with them twice early in our ministry. And they said the same thing. And so I think a lot of us do feel a release before God tells you what's the next thing. And you start to sense, like, wait, why do I feel released? Even in our last church that we were pastoring, Scott and I both said, This is so weird. We felt a release around our birthday. And I thought I told I joked with him and said, one of the university presidents must be getting ready to retire. Because we really thought we'd spend our last decade of ministry at a university because he really is a man divided between the church and the academy. Yeah. So it's that release that you sense in your spirit and it makes no sense because we've been completely content and happy. And then one, some churches, and then another, we were like, oh, thank you, Lord. Let's keep moving.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Yeah. Well, Sam and I have felt that release for sure in a couple of our transitions. And another, we like to say, God just interrupts us. And what I mean by that is we're just heading on doing what we know to do wherever we are. And then something comes to us. And it's not every time, there's been stuff come to us where we're just like, thank you, but no, thank you, you know, kind of thing. We're just not ready. There's not that that's for sure conversation. But some of the things that we have prayed about, I'll tell that story in a second. We start praying about it. And there seems to be a tenderness in our spirit towards it. And and then we converse about it and the Lord just kind of says, I know what you were doing, but I now need you to do this, you know, kind of thing. We have had the reliefs for sure in a couple of our churches where it's like, okay, we need to pay attention to what the Lord has next for us. And so we just keep doing what we're doing and pay attention to what the Lord has next for us. And then there's a transition, it seems like. But there's been at least two times where, and this and the this last transition is one of those times the Lord interrupted us because we absolutely loved being a district superintendent when we had to really take some time and pray about that when it came to Sam for this position. And when he was praying and I was having my devotions, and then we come back together about a week, you know, this whole thing every time. And he journaled all the way through it. And it was, it was almost like the Lord was writing it in the sky for us, but through the scriptures that we were reading, the spirit was just tenderizing our heart towards this in a way that we were not expecting. This is not what this week was supposed to be holding, you know, kind of thing. So yeah, we have felt released, but then we have been interrupted a couple times too. I love that term interrupted.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

And you do feel a piece to go, even though I want to say it's hard. Oh, yes. And you think you're going to die. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like leaving is so hard when you really love a space you're serving in. Yes. And I even think not only the whole church, but thinking back, I did taught women's ministry for uh over 25 years on Wednesday nights. And again, I think I shared in one of the first episodes. Scott came home at our first church and said the lady quit, asked me to do it for two months. And then I fell in love with helping women and was like, ah, this is my jam. These are my people. And so for years I taught a class called Girlfriend to Girlfriend. And I'll never forget at our last church when I sensed the spirit was saying you're done. And I thought, I'm not done. I'm gonna bring this back after COVID. And I knew he was calling me to be done. And it was so painful because I didn't know why. Yeah. And I look back, Jill, and even this podcast, and I have another online little ministry called Create Your Next Season, trying to help women get unstuck. But I couldn't have any space or time. And that's what I started at that time. And I had to learn all this online stuff. And it was crazy. And I still think it's crazy, but I couldn't, I wouldn't have space in my life to even learn these things if I had kept that class because I it was really time consuming, but it made no sense at the time. But I felt his leading, so it was hard. And I still I'm still not sure why, because I miss having women in the like being on a Wednesday night class with a group full of women and working through a book together. Yeah. So I don't know, but it is hard.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

I would say, you know, when it is hard. It is hard. I feel like from a pastor spouse, let me just say this. When you are getting ready to do a transition, I feel like we're on a seesaw of, you know, we're grieving a little bit of where where we were, or maybe we weren't expecting this. You know, I've been there too. And then also maybe we're sensing a bit of excitement for, oh my goodness, what what is this? You know, I don't know. I got to learn this kind of thing. And so there's a you're just you're doing this seesaw of emotions almost every minute. And it's exhausting, you know, of trying to help your people say, no, we still love you, even though we're not gonna be here every Sunday with you or, you know, even near you, but we still love you. And yet this is what the Lord's calling us to, and we have no idea what it's about or how to do it, but we've got to go figure it out, you know, kind of thing. So it's emotionally exhausting, emotionally hard, physically it's hard. And then if you have young kids in the house, yeah, you're trying to help teach them about the moving of the spirit in your life and that you do follow and you do step out on faith. And so there's just all of this stuff that's part of this that is hard.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

So let's give those of you listening who are struggling with this, and maybe God has just called you guys to move and relocate. Let's give them a few tips that worked for us and things not to do. So I'm gonna go first because I have one early on in our ministry. Pastor Stan Stan told her we were on staff with him, and Scott resigned as the worship leader, and then we were gonna move to a church and be college pastors. And he Scott was gonna give him a long, like, we'll say if till you find someone. And he said, No, you guys are done. That you'll get to say goodbye this week and you're done. And in ministry, he said, You really want to move on as quickly as possible. And at the time we both thought, did he not like us? Like it just seems so mean. And I a hundred percent, he was a wise, wise man. Once you have resigned, even in your spirit, you know we're moving on. You are starting to build those new dreams and ministry at the next place, and you have to let go of this place. And I always tell my kids, it's not that it feels this way, but I'm sure it's not true. But it feels like last Sunday, Daddy was the favorite preacher on the planet, and this Sunday he's the Antichrist because we're leaving and they feel betrayed. And that is just the congregation collectively going, uh, right. And they have pastors come and go. And it's just hard, even I'm thinking, because this isn't just pastoral leaders listening to us, but even in the global church, like you're moving around to a different position in the church, and it is really hard, especially for that person that just got elected. We're getting ready to go into our assembly season. So some are listening, and you just became a DS espouse, and that is really hard. And I think understanding that congregation is mourning the loss because they did love you. Be happy that they're sad you're leaving, because sometimes they probably throw a party quietly, yeah, that's right. But do it's okay, and you need to move on too. And if you have small kids, the best advice I got early on, and it so helped us, was make that transition as fun as possible for your children. The first room every time we moved, we unpack our kids' bedrooms. Once you are their world, once their toys in their bed and everything is out, and then even though they're gonna miss friends, and our one son, Caleb, really struggled with one and at the playground, there was a giant map of the United States, and he would just sit on Oklahoma at recess, and we're like, but you're ripping out my heart. It killed us. But we were his little world and he adjusted and we tried to find all the fun things he would love in that new environment and at the new church and connecting him. Yeah, think of your kids first, but you also need to do things that get you excited about this transition because God didn't call you to wound you. No, that's exactly what he called you because he has something new and you are the right fit for this assignment.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Yeah. You know, we have looked back, and of course, hindsight to 2020, you know, and a couple of our transitions. We've always known the Lord was calling Sam, following his call and where we were going. But at the same time, there was always something for Ross, and then even for me. And I have never viewed it that way until like recently. I was like, oh my goodness, look back because one of our first times at one of our churches was a Wednesday night. Ross was gonna be a, I think, a freshman or a sophomore or something like that. He was 20 feet ahead of us, ready to be a part of that youth group, because that youth group and that youth pastor had sent this big welcome package to him and people made all the pictures and stuff all about him, what school they went to. He, it's like he already knew them. It was so awesome. But yet, you know, we were like, okay, the Lord's calling you, Sam. But the Lord was making a way for our son. And then he made a way for me to do different things, you know, at that time too. But I will talk about, you know, I think Stan Toller was probably right, and we might need to get the manual change in the church and screen. But, you know, when you resign, you're supposed to be there for 30 days. You give them a 30-day time. Yeah. And those 30 days are all they're the hardest 30 days ever, not only for the church for sure, but for the people that are doing the transition. And you're exactly right. When the decision is made and it's said out loud and you have resigned, you really are trying to figure out how do I move forward without harming what where I am.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

You know, I don't know if we've ever done anything perfectly at all in this this role, this time of moving. But I do know we have always just tried to pray and bless the people that have loved us so well. You know, just be and and we're still sweet friends with a lot of those folks in different churches through our history. But, you know, they're they're just precious people because they then now, they need to turn their attention to, okay, Lord, their prayers need to be focused on, all right, who is our next spiritual leader here? Who's going to form my children spiritually? We need to be praying for the church board and for the for this next person because that that feeling of maybe feeling released or it might be an interruption for somebody is is going to happen, or it might be already happening. And that is the process. And they need to turn their attention to that as well as us leaving, you know, but loving them well as we leave. It's just, it's a difficult thing.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

And especially the first time, I think is the hardest. But you not that you your goal is to move you around a lot in the church at all, because he do longevity and wow. If I don't even know how to say this or if I'm allowed to say it, but I would say if you are at a church and heaven and earth have kissed, like we had one experience like this, and you're like, oh my land, a lot of people never get to experience that. So don't listen to the church leaders that are telling you you need to lead because you got elected to something where you have to go. Listen to the spirit. And he may be calling you, but he also may be a leader trying to fill the hole in their leadership team. That's running to move you. So make sure you know you know. And you and Scott and I always did have one heart on that. Like we did know. And transition, even good hot, good transition is a hard transition. Yeah. I always had to find when I've called it my hidden ministry within Scott's ministry. Like God always had a space where no one was doing what I thought. Oh, that. And like even now, this is I really feel like the global church, have we taken care of the spouses? And so when I say, hey, church, I'm like pointing back at me now, like, hey, how are we gonna do this? We have no idea. You and I just made it up and we're trying to move it along. But I feel like that's the space that I found God had for me. So I will say first, just don't not every call is an opportunity, is God calling you to leave. So make sure you're wise and discern that. No, you know, you know, yes, God's saying we should go before you resign.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

I agree with that 150%. Just because an opportunity is before you does not mean that it is for you. Yeah. No, it's it you have to be either already wrestling with something like you said, you know, being released from something and you're gonna pray about that. Even one of the situations we were released from, and a couple opportunities came, but they were not the right ones. For whatever reason, we just felt like that. That is just that not clear. We kept using the word cleared at that time. Like this is, I feel it doesn't feel clear. And and then one came and it was just like we were walking, you know, when you walk in the grocery store, at least the doors open before you, and you just keep walking and the doors open. That's what that felt like. But we've also had you know situations where he's gotten elected to different things, but but no, that that wasn't that's not where the Lord is leading him at this time. It wasn't that wasn't clear. Just because the opportunity is there does not mean it is the right thing to do. And I think we'd really need to go back to, at least for Sam and I, we always go back to the call of where we are. Has God released you? And sometimes He has. And sometimes it's like, nope, I've got way more work to do here. You know, you've got to keep going here. And and if we don't keep going back and we go back to it together, you know, like you said, I as a spouse, I the Lord in his graciousness has allowed me to feel the same thing that Sam has felt in this. And we're we're a team in this, you know, the call is over all of our family. We live beside it and everything under it. But yeah, the I just say that it's just not just because there's an opportunity does not mean it's the right thing to do at all.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

But I will say on that note too, sometimes it seems absolutely crazy to accept that change. Like, there's no way. Like I'm thinking back early on, I was working on half-hour sitcoms and making really good money. Yeah. We sensed God calling us to leave California and move to Oklahoma, and that made no financial sense. Like that was a stupid move. Yeah. And it was heartbreaking for me because I finally felt like, oh, I made it to work in Hollywood. Yeah. And I quit that. So that made no sense. And then one other move of ours from Texas to California, where you know, we now have four kids and we left California with two and we're going back. And the cost of living was crazy, but we knew, we knew, we knew the voice of God, even though it didn't make sense on paper, yeah, it it was the right thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Yeah. Been there exactly the same thing. And it's not always for a larger church. No, that's it. Matter of fact, we've moved from a to a church that was kind of in crisis that people with some of our mentors were saying, you don't want to do that, you know. Us too. But we but we knew, we knew, we knew. It's like, well, if we don't do this, we're gonna be in the wrong, you know, kind of thing. And the same thing, the whole financial thing, it's not anything like this in ministry, or at least with the call. You know, yeah, exactly. You're just all over and and it's just where the Lord says, you just have to trust me again. I'm gonna provide again. And, you know, your loaves and fishes are gonna multiply, you're gonna eat. We've been, we've been under a roof, you know, we've we've been protected from the weather.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

I would rather have nothing and live where God wants me to live, which kind of is what I'm doing now, like crazy. And I would rather do that than to be in a place that it's all figured out and I don't need God. Like there's something so beautiful in living in his rhythm.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

And you know, I would say, let me just give a little bit of a of a check to the pastor's spouses that might be listening to say if you if there is an opportunity before you know you and your husband or you or you and your wife, whichever one, and you are praying about it, make sure that you are you are fully in tune with the spirit before you open your mouth on an opinion. Because I have seen a few good, wonderful women. Let me just say that. They're wonderful, but there was an opportunity that the husband really felt like they should do, and she just put her foot down and said, you know, this is we're not going there, I'm not moving there, I'm not gonna do that. And so they didn't. And now, you know, they're I I they're still doing okay, but I'm just saying God can still bless in that. But there might have been more blessings that you needed to step out on faith for because it is uncomfortable to move. It is hard, especially when you go, oh my word, when you go to a new town or let's just say a new state. We went to a new state, and you know absolutely no one, don't know it in the church of Nazarenes. We have districts, you don't know anybody in your district, you don't know where the milk is in the grocery store. You know, some of the familiarity kind of things you don't know. Finding a doctor is much easier than finding someone to do your hair. Let's just admit it. Yeah, let's bring that up. That's just the hardest thing ever.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Tip on that one is look for women that have cute hair. I know. I've learned that's harder. Transitions are just hard. Transitions are hard, there's no easy way, but it doesn't mean it's not worth it. And it doesn't mean it's just not possible. No, like even now, like truly, my husband has the hardest job for me to figure out what is my space beside this calling. And it's so lonely and just so bizarre. Uh, and I will say, God has been so big, so real, I won't change it for anything because he truly is my best friend walking this journey with me. Like it's crazy. Do I like it? Absolutely not. But I'm grateful that he's given helped me through times to get my spiritual muscles strong enough that I was like, okay, let's do this. I know that's his voice. Let's do this.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

Yeah, that's right. You know, it's and it takes time. I always tell anybody starting a new job, and I try to tell myself too, give yourself a year. But when you make a transition, you know, you gotta kind of get some things set up immediately, but give yourself a year. Give yourself grace. If you were if you were looking in on your such situation, just give yourself some grace. You gotta do all the the logistical things to make the move. We understand all that, but give yourself some grace to feel like your home. That that takes a while. And here's the interesting thing for Sam and I, any, any time, every time we have moved to a new place, all of our stuff, you know, the moving people, they all come. You can set up a house, you can put your things in your nest. But honestly, in about two and a half years, the rest of me gets there. I don't know why, but it feels like I, you know, I just remember going, Oh, I think we're home now, you know, kind of thing. It's like, and it's always right at that two and a half year mark for us.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

That's so funny you said that. Because I tell younger gals that I have tried to help that it's taken me three years every Time before you feel like you can open any door at the church and someone won't yell at you. Yeah. Like, oh, now it's my church. It's okay. But it takes three years before you're like, oh no, these are my people and this because but they're learning you. And again, your goal is they probably love the pastor that left them and the spouse. Yeah. And so they're gonna have to, you're different. It's not that they're bad people, they're just both working on this relationship. Yep. And they have to learn your heart. And when they trust that you really do love and care for them, everything changes. And you the same for us, right? When I trust they really do love me and care about me and my family, everything changes.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Everything changes, but that takes time, right? That's time. It takes time and it just got to give yourself time.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

And make sure you're finding ways as the spouse to feel comfortable in this transition. We've moved before with four small children, and they wanted to have that culture of that church was they always had you in their home. And a lot of them would invite us and say, not with our children. And that wasn't how Scott and I did life. Yeah. And so we did that a few times. And then we were like, hmm, that's just not either we come as a six-pack or none at all. Right. Like, no, Scott can have coffee with you during the day. Yeah. And do guard your time as a family in that transition. And remember, it's okay. They their at least my husband's tendency is to work 80 hours, like just get everything at church going. Yeah. And I would have to remind him, hey, we need you here just as much because we have to get our family life in a rhythm. Again, it's new, right? Yeah. And it is hard. And a lot falls on the spouse.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Yeah, that's exactly right. A lot of it. And then especially if, you know, you're moving, like we have done a handful of times where I need to find a job, you know, to supplement whatever because of the call and because of the transition, there's just there's just always a lot on the spouse. For sure. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Let's end with a thought on what do we do when you and I first started transitions? It was easy because there was no social media. And so you couldn't stay connected with people unless it was snail mail. And so it was a little easier. Now, our last two transitions, everyone at your old place still wants to be friends because you're on social media and you see each other's life. How do you handle that, Jill? How what would you say to that spouse now who's leaving some place of ministry and headed to a new place?

SPEAKER_00 24:21

That's such a great question. And I don't know if I have the right answer. At one time, I kind of thought, you know, you leave the church building, you literally leave that flock of people. You might need to leave them on social media. But now I'm kind of I I don't necessarily go with that too much. I just think there is a way to make room for the new people where you were. You need to, you know, if you know, if you're scrolling and it's somebody's birthday maybe from the church that you just left, and you know that their new pastor is there or whatever, because they've announced it and they're excited about it, give them a couple years before you start wishing them happy birthday again or something. You know, there's there's a there's a place. There seems to be a time or a space. It's just a it's the the art of leadership, even on social media. Yeah. It's just you've got to kind of lead where you are led, not where you have been necessarily. You can still encourage, like this morning. Let me just say this. I did just wish a lady in our former church a happy birthday, but it I didn't do it for a couple of years when the new pastor was there because I just kind of stayed, I could see their life. I didn't necessarily like it. I didn't stay in, you know, the connection as deeply and just give space for whoever was there next because the Lord called them there too. And they need to love and cherish them. I do think you can have friends all over, you know, but I do think there is a just be sensitive to where the Lord is leading you because wherever you are, where whoever was the leader that felt the Lord leading them out, you know, you you will you would appreciate that space to get to know the people there too, instead of the leader always always in the social media with them and all that kind of stuff. There's a space thing that we need to give. And I think you can I know you can still have friends where you ministered before. I I do. I I still do. But it's it's just if you if you can't discipline yourself to stay away, so to speak, from those people, just de-friend them for a while and then ask them back. You know, set your boundaries on social media. I think people forget that you can set your boundaries on social media. But, you know, just just give them a little space to start loving the new people that the Lord called there to. Because we've been those new people. And then we've also, you know, we appreciate who has given us this space coming in for them to and honestly, it doesn't it can get a little confusing a little bit for the people, for the church people, right? Like who is my pastor? Who is my leader? Who's my whatever? And you can have lots of pastor friends. Yeah. You need your weekly spiritual formation person, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

And I will say I got some really great advice in this last role has been the hardest in the transition because social media is everywhere and we actually live in the same town we pastored. But I realized I I don't have the space to carry them. Yeah. And because if you don't create new space to fill up with new people and you just have your old space, I was very busy just at the church. I so you really do have to learn to let go. And then there's some that are going to be friends for life, but there's some that were friends for a season. And so you really have, and I still get excited when I see them or something pops up. But it was great advice she gave me. And it was that Debbie, you have to let go because on our new position, we rotate every two years. And she was saying how I have to let go of even all my old DSs that I finally got to go and to create new space. Otherwise, there isn't space in my life, even my prayer time. Like I have a prayer closet in this office, and I was like, Oh my man, there's there's no space to put the new ones. I will literally be a woman praying six hours a day, which probably would be good for me and the world. But if I had if I didn't let go of praying, because I really was praying for their families, and I need to meet the new ones that I'm about to meet as we start the American assemblies and Canada assemblies. So I think that that was wise advice too, just for my own health, that I have to let go because if I don't create space, there's no place for new friendship.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

Right. And the Lord has like like I just said, you know, he's called your spouse to do whatever he or she is doing, but that doesn't mean he doesn't care about you. So he understands, he has blessings for you with maybe new friendships or new experiences or whatever. He cares, he cares about you. You're not just the the sidekick in ministry, right? That God feels that way for a minute. No, God does not look at you like that. You you matter and you you you are moving the kingdom of God down the road because you are supporting the call and going and transitioning and doing this, and it's again not easy, but it is possible and it is doable, and and there are blessings throughout it and through at the end of it.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Yeah. And I do think I don't want you to misunderstand my comment either. There are some friendships that you'll take from that last church, and they will be your lifelong friends. And and that's okay too. Any closing thought, Joe?

SPEAKER_00 29:54

I would just say if you are listening and you're praying about maybe a transition coming up, or maybe you're starting to feel released, like Debbie was talking about, and that we have experienced or maybe the Lord has just interrupted you and you thought you were going to be at this place a lot longer, uh, like we have had as well. Just keep praying and be close to the Holy Spirit. Just let him guide you because it is it is his kingdom, but he cares for you. He cares for your spouse, he cares for you, he cares for your family, he knows exactly what you're going through. He knows your questions, your concerns, your worries, all of that. We've all that brings them all up of transition, of for sure. But he's got you. He's got you.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

You're you're not alone in this, though, right? I'm just gonna end with this closing thought. Leaving well is not about having a perfect ending, it's about honoring where you've been, caring for your heart, and stepping into what's next with trust. Even in the uncertainty, there's a purpose in this transition. That's beautiful. So, friends, thank you for listening to Beside Every Calling. Jill and I have enjoyed having a conversation with you. And until next time, keep loving somebody. That's right. See you later. If this conversation felt a little too familiar, like, were they sitting in my living room this week familiar? That's your sign. Text this episode to one ministry spouse who might need it today. And if this space feels like oxygen in your season, would you please take 30 seconds and leave us a review? It helps more spouses find this beautiful, sometimes overlooked, but wildly important community. We'll see you next time on Beside Every Calling.