Beside Every Calling | Episode 09: Finding Real Friendship in Ministry Life

This is a space for those walking beside a calling—where identity is formed beside it, not lost within it.

Why is friendship in ministry life often harder than people expect?

In this honest and heartfelt conversation, Debbie and Jill talk about one of the most quietly painful realities of ministry life—the challenge of finding genuine, safe friendship while living in the unique pressures of ministry.

From shifting relationships and friendship wounds to healthy boundaries and building intentional community, they share personal stories and practical wisdom from different seasons of ministry life.

They also talk honestly about the importance of a small, trusted inner circle and why meaningful friendship takes intentionality, time, and courage—even after disappointment.

If you’ve ever felt unsure where you fit, longed for deeper connection, or wondered if anyone truly understands this life, this conversation is a reminder that you are not alone—and that meaningful friendship is still possible.

Want to connect with us or share your story?
Email us at: besideeverycalling@gmail.com

Table Talk Questions:
1. What kind of friendship do you need most in this season of your life?
2. Are there any past hurts that may be affecting how you approach friendship today?
3. What boundaries might help you build healthier, more life-giving relationships?
4. Is there one small step you could take this week to pursue meaningful connection? If yes describe it out loud.
5. How can you invite God into your desire for friendship in a more intentional way?

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Beside Every Calling, where a life you love is formed beside the call and not lost within it. If your date night has occasionally included a hospital stop or your kids played Let's Baptize in the pool instead of Marco Polo, you understand this rhythm. Across every season, from little ones to leadership transitions to emptiness, we live beside the call while creating lives we love along the way. So please get comfortable and let's dive into today's episode. Hi, friends, and welcome to this episode of Beside Every Calling. I'm Debbie Daniels. And I'm Joe Barber. And today we are really excited. We're going to talk about finding real friendship in ministry life. And I'm just going to take a minute and read my opening two thoughts so I say it correctly. In this episode, we want to continue the conversation from last week, but shift the focus forward. If loneliness is something many of us have felt in ministry, which we all know we have, today we want to talk about what real, meaningful, meaningful friendship can actually look like. Friendship in ministry often feels more complicated than expected. There can be uncertainty around who is safe, what can be shared, how your role may affect relationships. Because of that, it's easy to become guarded or keep people at a distance, even when there is a deep desire for connection. But the goal is not to be known by everyone. This is my favorite part. The goal is to find one or two safe, trusted people where you can be honest, known, and supported. Real friendship may look different in ministry life, but it is still possible. And that is what I want to start with. Because my dear friend Jill is one of my trusted, real friends that I text when I need to. And even today, right back at you. Yeah. I text her this morning and said, Jill, please can you start us with a devotional? Because my spirit is heavy and weary. Those listening, you don't know me, but I am getting ready to have glaucoma surgery, and my eyesight is just weighing me down. So absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

And it's it's it happens to all of us. When I have to have a procedure, I have you don't know me either, everybody's listening, but I have Crohn's disease, and there's lots of little things that have happened to me over many years and still are happening every once in a while. And and our spirits can get heavy. But I, when you asked me to think about doing this, I just went right to one of my main verses that Sam and I really and I just kind of lean on all the time. It's Isaiah 41, 10, and I'll read it to you all. So do not fear, for I am with you. Do not be dismayed, for I am your God. And here's the the sentence that really just draws me in. I love all that before, but it says, I will strengthen you and help you. I will uphold you with my righteous right hand. Many times I have my devotions in the morning with my hot tea, because I don't drink coffee. I'm not a coffee. I know you are. I'm so proud of you. I just can't do it. But anyway, one of many years ago, I was having a day. I have in a morning, you know, just kind of one of those times. And I started writing this, what I'm going to read, kind of a little love note from God to myself. I just needed it, you know, and I thought, well, I don't know if he would say this exactly or not to me, but I wrote it anyway. And here's what I wrote even after I read that very same verse. It says, You do not do this day alone. He's got you, he knows you, he loves you, he's working on your behalf right now. He's the healer of your heart, and he's the healer of your body. He's the mender of your mind. He sustains you in the deepest hurt. He understands all your questions. He's making a way right now. Breathe deep and know that you do not do this day alone. Oh, amen. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

I think he would say that. Well, I just I it was just one of those times, and I've just kind of kept it with me and and posted it again here and there, different times, just for me, really, just to remind myself that he does have us by our right hand. He upholds us, he gives us strength, he's and he's going before us. You know, we in our tradition, we believe in provenient grace, which means he's already in tomorrow. He's already working on all of that, what you're feeling about your surgery and anybody that's feeling about whatever tomorrow holds or even the next few hours hold. He's already there. And he's not only with us, he's within us, and he goes before us. So that I hope just as you, you know, I know we're having this conversation and you've got this on the back of your mind, of course. And many people listening probably have many things on their mind as well. But it it's just good for me to to go back to that verse, and he doesn't leave us alone. He's he knows us inside and out, and and he cares for us more than we actually can even imagine.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

So and if thank you, and if you're listening and you're kind of like me and your spirit is anxious, you can know all that stuff, but having a girlfriend read it to you brought such peace. So I'm gonna ask you to rewind and listen to Jill again and again and again until it sinks in. So I'll ask you, Jill, what has friendship looked like for you in the ministry over the years?

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Yeah, that's a great question. And it's it's been very different at different stages of uh our life. Being newlyweds, you know, we had the Lord brought friends into our life at a time where we were on staff and we knew we needed friends. And the Lord brought another little couple into our world, and we it it just was a beautiful time. And that was that felt that filled our our bucket of fellowship while we were doing that ministry there. Then honestly, you know, when we lived in North Carolina and Ross was little and well, little, you know, a a young kid growing up into a preteen, all that kind of stuff. It was interesting. We had lots of lots of people to fellowship with, great people inside and outside the church. And a lot of it came because he was in sports or, you know, all the the the people that were having their other kids. We got to have great friends inside the church there and great friends outside the church because of the sports world, you know, and different things like that. That look very differently. And then I'll fast forward to, you know, being an empty nester is is a whole different ball game looking for friends, especially if you move somewhere new and you don't have the kids to kind of make help you make those automatic friendships of doing things with kids' activities and all that kind of stuff. Because that was a beautiful way of having friends. It just became easier, it seemed like. But being empty nesters and moving different places, you know, it it it comes, friends come, but we have found that it's a little bit more, you have to be more intentional. And so it there's just been different, different chapters, different ways, and different beautiful friends all the way along. It it just has looked very different. How about you? What about what about your life and your friends?

SPEAKER_01 7:31

I think it's also transitioned over time. Like I remember when my kids were little, I think in another episode I talked about the birthday club because I just wanted some adult time and this group of women and I would go to a restaurant and close it down. Yeah. And then another time a cleaning club with a friend. I've had church friends and God truly has always provided one uh I could count them on my fingers, but good friends that I knew cared more about me than just how I served them. Yeah. But I I think it is interesting now with us traveling so much, is is I won't say impossible because with God anything is possible. But I'm not anywhere long enough. So I'm going back to old friendships and rekindling them. Yeah. And I love, I can't remember who put this stat out. I kind of oh, I I'm not gonna guess and miss up her name, but there's someone else that that talks about friendship and they talk about how you need 200 hours with someone to have an intimate friend, which is why if you think back to elementary school or college especially, you get 200 hours like that with your roommate or the bowl, your sorority, whoever you're hanging out with. And so so much at our age, can you how long is it gonna take me to spend 200 hours with someone to really get that emotional deep connection? And so I think I they've all looked different, but it's interesting. I even have a group, there's eight of us, I think eight that I've been friends with since fifth grade. And they get together every three years, and I they get together almost every year. Every three years I join them, and those are some of my lifelong friends. I don't have to explain any, I just show up and they know all of me the good, the bad, the ugly, the pre-Christian Debbie, the post-Christian Debbie, and they are just and we have some things in common, a ton not in common. Yeah, just a lot of history together. And I love being with them because those are still the friends that I can show up with. And I we don't even have and back in the day where you didn't have to agree with everything. That group of people, I we still love each other completely and don't have to agree on everything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

And so that's been fun. The only reason I'm asking is I have noticed, and Sam and I have even talked about this, that you know, he can walk into a room and another guy like his tennis shoes, and he likes his tennis shoes he's got on, and they're like buddies forever. You know what I mean? It's not not that that's superficial, but it's just a different kind of connection level. And I feel like for me, I have to like to have a great friend or a safe friend, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Safe is key. Maybe that is a female, but I think Scott also would say he needs safe friends. Like he some people just want to be his friend, yeah, yeah, for a variety of reasons. But his real friends, like he'll say, they call me to golf, they know when I'm home. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Well, let me ask you this have you with friends, with all that kind of stuff, as we're talking about safe friends, have you in ministry ever struggled to find a safe friend or anything like that?

SPEAKER_01 10:33

Yes, I have. I think I'm I I think this is probably really common with those of us in ministry. I think a lot of people think I'm their best friend or dear friend. Like I know everything, and they'll call and text me, and I'm happy to pray for them. I love them, but it is one-sided, if you think, in the sense of they rarely ask me about my stuff. And I love the I love the role of being a pastor. Like that was great for me. I still find that people still text me and I love it. But I do feel when I show up, we were talking earlier about having Karen Gunter maybe on, and I love that lady. I don't know. She just randomly will text you, she's praying for you, and there's something so beautiful. And I think she really is my friend. She doesn't have any reason to randomly be praying for me today. And so I think those kind of friendships are huge. And I probably have just from life experience, stuff that have happened in my past with friendships, that I have a pretty thick wall.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Yeah, yeah. And I would say I do too. I think I've been hurt so deeply by a variety of things, yeah, that my wall of protection over myself and not it's not that I can't be around people or love them or all that kind of stuff, but to truly let them in is that's the there's very few that get in, you know. And I, you know, I as I was just thinking about that, it dawned on me and I was reminded Jesus did life in his adult world with like 12 guys, right? But he was really only close to about three of them. So I think that's just kind of uh an example that we don't have to, even as pastor spouses or wherever you are living, I think when I first started, uh well, I know I did, I was just happy to tell anybody everything about me and what do you want to know? Blah, blah, blah. I'm an open book, blah, blah, blah. And I think because nobody gave me the approval or the guidance to say, you don't have to be an open book to love everybody. I wound a wounding just happened deeply. Yeah. And and so I, you know, and sample is the same way. We were both the same way, especially as we were young, just jumping into ministry, going full force and all of that. And then I do remember a transition that was made. The Lord helped us in this transition that we went to another place and another state. And I remember us sitting in the car before we ever walked into the building. Ross was just a little tyke, about three or four years old, in the back of the seat, back seat. And before we ever walked in, Sam just grabbed my hand and we just said, Okay, we're not gonna do it the same way here. And I said, I know. And so we kind of said, We're gonna put this bubble around us. Not that we don't want to love people, but we're gonna be very choosy who gets in. And that was a wall of protection, a boundary to save us, to protect us. And it really, it really did work. And we still to this day kind of walk around with, you know, not that we don't want to love people or want we want them to love us too, but it is very because of the wounds we've experienced, there are very few that we feel safe with to be open and honest about different things that, you know, we want to talk about ever.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

And to our friends listening that are just starting out, it's okay that you're not everyone's best friend. Yes, yes, and you don't have to fit everyone into your schedule. Yes, their needs don't have to become your needs. And for me, emotionally ill people are really hard for me. I have a mom that's mentally ill and I've had to deal with that my whole life. And I don't have space in my life for one more person like that. So the second I get the oh my, this is someone not very healthy, I immediately know I have to pass them on. In churches, I pass them on to another pastor or someone else, yeah. I can't handle your volatility. Right. I also can't handle friendships. And this is my personality. If you're gonna need a friend that needs to text every day, that I am not your girl. I don't have time. Right. I need my friend Amy that I can randomly or Deborah or Kelly or Linda or someone that I'm just randomly texting, yeah, and they text back and we have a great conversation and pick up right where we were. Yeah. So that is much more my style. But you again, it does depend on personality. And I think you have to be okay with, hey, this is the way I want to do friendship. Yeah. And I know friends, I when we go in one of our big meetings or something, and I can't wait to hug them and catch up, but that's all of our friendship. And I think that's okay too. There are different types of friendships. Absolutely. I really get excited when I see them. Yeah, but I don't text with them often or monthly or even, you know, maybe yearly.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Yeah. Yeah. I'm in the same boat. I we have we have friend acquaintances. You know what I mean? Like it was like, oh man, we we love what you're doing, you know, you're doing great. And we really do.

unknown 15:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

It's like you guys are really going great or whatever. We're so proud of you, what whatever you're doing. And we hug them like maybe once a year, you know, or twice a year, whatever we can get to see them.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

I create a prayer calendar with our travel and I send it to friends with little people that pray for us, teaching them to pray. But I also send it to my friends that are my prayer warrior friends. And those people pray over our travel, and I know they're praying. It's not people that I question it. And then I have friends that I know if I text Sandy or Amy or Ashley, they're gonna pray the second. And those are people that have become friendship through ministry life together. Yeah, and we're not even at the same church now, but I still know, oh, those prayer warriors, they've got my back. Oh, yes. But I don't talk to them a lot. But I will say when I am home, and I don't know about you, because again, we're not both both. If you're just joining us, Jill and I travel a lot. When I am home, I have to be very particular who I spend time with because it needs to be someone, and I it's gonna sound so selfish to say this, but it has to fill my bucket. Like I don't have any energy when I get home to take care of all the needs of other people.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Well, let me just explain a little bit because when you're on the road, at least this is what happens to me. So let me just say this when we're when we're on the road, and and it's a beautiful gift to do that, and it just but it drains you, you are on all the time. Yeah, not even like even trying to make sure you you get to your flight on time and all the details that it takes for that, and it's a little bit stressful some days on that part, and different long lines and whatever all that is. But when you get there, you're meeting people, and so you're you're on and you're figuring out what's going on, and you're learning names, and you're trying to encourage, and you're you're supporting your spouse and whatever he means. And it's just this, this, this give, give, give, give, give. And so when you get home, not only are you physically exhausted, you're mentally and emotionally exhausted, at least is what we find ourselves. And we really need a re we call it a recovery day, depending on what the it's not always a weekend because we're usually working on the weekends in the day or whatever, but we just need a recovery day to kind of came, okay. What are we doing? Where are we? And what do I need to do? You know, kind of thing, just to catch up on everything. It's a it's a great experience. It's always wonderful to be out and about with the people and all that kind of stuff, but it is just really exhausting kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

And you have to have those friendships that you can text to say, hey, I'm exhausted. Like you said, we have you know, four kids, they're married, that's eight plus my mother-in-law when we come home. And those are my nine people I want to fit in my bucket. Like they have to get in there.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

And then I have friends that I would love to see with too, but it just depends on how we're doing. Like this time, Scott is at the end of his Africa trip and he is wiped out. Uh oh, yeah. I was talking to him, and like a rest day is two airwell, air flights, and then you get to a hotel. One of his flights left at 2 45 a.m. Other countries do that. Yeah. So it's just yeah, that's his rest day. And you're like, oh my land, you're just so exhausted, and he'll get home next Tuesday, and then we fly out on Friday and start all the American assemblies. So it is just a crazy schedule. And in that, I will say, my friendships look different. And if you happen to be a spouse of your ministry spouse at a local church, it's different because you're planted in one city, in one area. Yeah, but you just have different friends. Because I was thinking this morning, even praying in my prayer time, I was praying for our university presidents. The Nazarene Church has universities connected to it. And I love those spouses. And I thought this would be a good podcast for them too, because they do live our life in a way that they deal with people all the time, like the rest of us in ministry. And that might be the hardest job in the church, president of our Christian universities.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

So yeah, those friendships too.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Yeah. So let me ask a maybe a hard question. Have you experienced hurt from one of your friendships that you thought might be safe?

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Oh, absolutely. And that's where mine stems from. And I'm not going to go into detail.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

No, no details.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

No, but in college, my best two best friends, my run roommate, I found sleeping with my boyfriend. And then one night I lost my boyfriend and my best friend and had to move out. And that changed everything for me. Like that wall that went up was real. So that really shifted everything. And that was pre-cell phone day. So I would go in the hall and call my sister every single night, and she would count down how many days till college was out and I'd come back. But I've also had one in the church that was very painful and just stopped overnight. And again, I always say it's what your husband they could be love your husband or not love your husband, what he says or doesn't say, and that can change. Because at one church we had a family, we did everything. We even vacationed with them. And she heard Scott reference an author that had a who knows what people were arguing about, what he was doing at the time. But anyway, she left the church, and my kids and I never got to have any closure. My husband, you know, was her favorite preacher one Sunday, and the next Sunday was Satan. And I just go back to that and thought, man, I mean, we were a year into this friendship, vacation twice with them. And it I still don't know what happened, really.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Yeah. Yeah. I've I've had a few too that it's just been almost like comes out of the blue or whatever, or it just is you get ghosted kind of thing, and you just don't know why. Right. And you know, I I'm not saying I'm perfect in any kind of thing or whatever, but yeah, it's it's just hurtful. And I guess for those listening, I just want you to know if you're walking through some hard emotional days because of friends or what you thought was a friend, we've been there. We we understand you are not alone on that. But the Lord will provide, you know, He will He knows what your heart needs. And I do think it's just really good to. To sit to think about, you don't have to have 12 or 20 good friends. You know, you just need to find then the Lord will, if you don't have it, pray about it. Pray about it. Yeah. You're people. Yes, exactly. Just one, maybe two, you know, and maybe they don't even have to be in your church. Some some of the seasons that we had where we just had unbelievably great friends, they were all across the country, you know, and we could just text when we needed or remember something funny or just whatever. And we just had each other's backs and had each other in prayer. And we were ministering to a whole beautiful group of people, but our closest relationships probably weren't in that flock, you know.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

And it's just, and it's okay. So for that to happen.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

And I two thoughts on that. One is it's okay that you and your husband don't both like the same couple. Like Scott and I laugh. Very rarely do we both want to spend time with the same couple. Your seven jail just happened to be one. It was like, oh, I love this. No, there are several out there. So those friends that are listening, yes, we do love both of you. But I also want to say, if you've had like I would I was when you said ghost, I was like, oh my land, in the last year, I had someone ghost me. And Mel Robbins has a book called Let Them. I highly recommend it. I haven't read it because it gives you back your power. Like and you just let them, you can't not control circumstance, you can't control other people. Yeah. Only how you respond to them. Wow. She really helped me. And just if you're, you know, have really sensitive ears and eyes. And I will say she does cuss a little. So I probably shouldn't recommend that book, but it really did help me. Yeah. And it gives you back your power to say, yeah, I'm gonna let them and I'm gonna move on because I can't make anyone love me, like me.

unknown 23:50

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Only how I respond to them. And I hope I respond with kindness every time. Yeah. Even when they're ugly to me. And then I move on.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Yeah. We have to almost let them go. Yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Yes. And you don't have to have answers why. That was the beautiful part. Like you don't have to keep begging or asking or texting when they're ghosting you.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

No, that's exactly right. You know, I think trust after you've been hurt like that, it it takes a while. I think it slowly builds over time, at least for me. You know, when when I was hurt from people inside the church who, you know, you kind of were surprised by, so to speak, or whatever, at least there's there's a trust that gets wounded with that hurt. And to build that trust up again in somebody new, it it's you're cautious, you know, there's you're kind of taking a chance on them and they don't even know it, you know, so to speak, whatever. And I think that you'll either find out that no, this is a trustworthy person that they can, you know, be your friend at whatever level you're looking for, or you realize, yeah, this this is as far as it's going. We're just gonna hug and keep going, you know, kind of thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

And like with my kids, I taught them trust your gut.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

Yeah, trust your gut.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Trust your gut. It doesn't have to make sense, but trust your gut, which is really the spirit, I think, for a Christian. Yeah. And I will say I have different expectations of different friendships. Yeah. I have a lot of Christian friends, but I have a lot of non-Christian friends too, and I love them equally, just and my expectation, I'm not expecting my non-Christian friends to understand what I'm talking about the spirit or to say, pray for me.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Yeah, yeah. So yeah. We always say if we got all of our friends in one room, they would hate each other. Yeah. From Christian and non-Christian to many reviews on different things. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

And I think for anyone listening, also, just kind of a closing thought, ask yourself what do you need? Yeah, that's perfect. And sit with that and let yourself answer. Do I need a friend or am I okay right now, just the way it is? Or am I lonely and do I need a friend? And then what kind? And sometimes it's as simple as putting yourself out there. Like if you're in a brand new community, maybe going to that coffee shop and introducing yourself to someone else sitting, which is brave and crazy. And I have done it. I actually did it and evangelize this guy who made fun of me and laughed at me. His name was Rick at a Starbucks here in town in Nampa. And I invited him to our church and he said, Thank you so much. And I so appreciate your ate your evangelism. I'm a pastor in town too.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Yeah, I think the question is, see what you need. You know, I don't know why this happened to me, but when I was very young or in a teenage world kind of, I had a few really good friends. And but yet at the same time, there was something within me that kind of said, no, I can do it by myself. Not not friendship, but just life. Like I don't, I don't have to rely on someone else's opinion or or even being there. And I I told uh Sam many, many times, I've just I grew up as a loner, you know, with a loner that had friends. You know what I mean? Like it, but it wasn't, it wasn't re I didn't have to rely on my friends for joy, for peace, for all of that. You know, I learned that comes from Christ and all that all of that at the same time. But it's like you can you can be independent and but yet still have a few friends, you know. But I think that comes from sitting with it. It's like what do you need?

SPEAKER_01 27:25

What do you need? And and every season changes.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Yeah, every season does change. Well, I think this is really good. And for those listening, you know, where wherever you are in your life, in ministry and all of that, and your need for friendship, I do believe that's the the call of the day is to just ask the Lord, what what do you need? What do you need? And ask him and pray about it and let him be the one to provide it. And I think I think you will be surprised because he will he will answer.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Yeah. And just my last closing thought too is just I know sometimes we just say pray about it. And I just know there's probably a ministry spouse out there who's like, what do they mean by that? Which what do we mean? Just simple conversation with God out loud, saying, Lord, I am lonely and I need a friend. Yeah. And this is where I feel lonely. Or I'm I don't feel lonely, but I feel like you're calling me to friendship. Open the door, show me. Yeah. And then just start calling out to God. And if you're not even sure about what God's voice is like, I would suggest before you go to bed, just say, Holy Spirit, I give you permission tonight to wake me up. And that spirit you sense in your head and your being will grow louder and louder where you will hear it at a football game eventually. But that is the spirit moving and working in you. And Jill and I would both say it's the spirit that saves us, that directs us and guides us. It without him, I don't even think you can do the Christian walk at all. Every moment. Every moment. Yeah, that's exactly right. All right. Well, we are glad you're our friends. And if you would like to reach out to us, please look at the show notes because you can reach us at beside everycalling at gmail.com. And we would love to hear from you. Please, if you could share this with another ministry spouse, help us create this community, that would be great. Or like us on whatever platform you're listening to, that helps build the community too. And I guess that's it. So I'm gonna say goodbye to each of you, our new friends. Our new friends. See you later, Jill. See you later. If this conversation felt a little too familiar, like, were they sitting in my living room this week familiar? That's your sign. Text this episode to one ministry spouse who might need it today. And if this space feels like oxygen in your season, would you please take 30 seconds and leave us a review? It helps more spouses find this beautiful, sometimes overlooked, but wildly important community. We'll see you next time on Beside Every Calling.