Beside Every Calling | Episode 7: From Staff Spouse to Lead Pastor Spouse

Episode 7: From Staff Spouse to Lead Pastor Spouse

In this honest and heartfelt conversation... Debbie and Jill are joined by Dana Hustko and Bethany Jack to talk about one of the most significant transitions in ministry life—moving from being a staff pastor’s spouse to a lead pastor’s spouse.  This is a space for those walking beside a calling—where identity is formed beside it, not lost within it.

They share real experiences about increased visibility, shifting relationships, and the unexpected pressures that come with this role. From navigating criticism and comparison to learning how to support your spouse and protect your identity, this episode offers practical wisdom and encouragement for every season.

Whether you’re stepping into this role for the first time or have been living it for years, this conversation is a reminder that you are not alone—and that your identity is formed beside the calling, not lost within it.

Want to connect with us or share your story?
Email us at: besideeverycalling@gmail.com

Table Talk Questions:

1. What has been the most challenging part of navigating relationships         within the church in your current season?
2. Are there areas where comparison or outside expectations are affecting your joy?
3. How can you more intentionally support your spouse while also caring for your own identity and calling?
4. What rhythms could help you stay grounded and spiritually encouraged in this season?

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Welcome to Beside Every Calling, where a life you love is formed beside the call and not lost within it. If your date night has occasionally included a hospital stop, or your kids played Let's Baptize in the pool instead of Marco Polo, you understand this rhythm. Across every season, from little ones to leadership transitions to emptiness, we live beside the call while creating lives we love along the way. So please get comfortable and let's dive into today's episode. Welcome friends to an episode of Beside Every Calling, where the ministry is formed beside the call and not lost within it. Well, I should say our calling, but the ministry is everywhere. But today we are joined by two of our favorite friends, Dana and Bethany, that we Jill and I have known for a while. And we are excited to talk about the transition from being a staff ministry spouse to the senior pastor, which for me and Scott was that was a huge transition. And we're gonna cover all those areas. But before we get started, I would love for Dana and Bethany just to tell us a little bit about themselves.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

I am Dana, I'm married to David, and we are um pastoring in New Life at Pismo, California. And we've been married 26 years and been in ministry pretty much the whole time. Um we have four kiddos, they are 18, 20, 21, and 23. And um we love that like this season, it's kind of fun. They love Jesus, so it makes it so much easier and sweeter.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

And I'm Bethany, and my husband and I pastor in Lakeland, Florida at Church for the One, which used to be Highland Park. And uh we've been uh youth pastors, children's pastors, uh church planners. That was fun. And then now have been at two established churches. And for the longest time, I worked a completely separate job. And just within this last two years, I have stepped into ministry with my husband. So it's been it's been wild, it's been crazy, and I never would have saw it coming. Isn't that fun how the Lord just interrupts us? Oh, and we do have four kids as well nine, 11, 13, and 15.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

So all of us on the screen, all of us on this Zoom have been on the staff role, uh a staff spouse. Uh, but today I think we want to talk about and just kind of venture into that whole transition from when the Lord uh has called our husbands or our uh anybody that's going into a lead pastor's role, uh, that spouse, well for us, it was crazy big. I had no idea uh of the difference. Um, and so I guess today uh just talk to me a little bit about what the surprises were uh that you guys maybe felt could be good, could be bad, or just funky. Uh for me, I will say this before you answer. You know, I uh we went to a lead pastor's uh position at a very small church. It probably should have been shut down, truthfully, but they kept it open. Uh, and 20 people were there for our first Sunday because they all came out to see the the new pastor and spouse that, you know, it was a big crowd that day. Uh and it ended up growing. The Lord really did a beautiful thing there. But during that time, I recognized I stepped into a new universe. You know, uh, we were on uh staff at a a couple different churches before and uh different different things happened there and we're good and learned a lot. But now we were in this position in a smaller church where anything and everything, anything and everything that got done, it was between Sam and myself, uh, from driving the van to pick up kids back in the day when parents were okay with that, to playing the piano to leading the singing, to, you know, we didn't even, you know, we even flipped that thing over on the what's that thing, uh, the mimeograph thing when you printed it off, you know, the the words of the song. That was back when we started putting words on this on the wall, you know, back in that day. But anyway, we are old. We are old. It you they don't even know what it is, probably people listening. It was just for us a very different uh world, a different world and a different level of pressure. Um when your spouse is in charge of the spiritual growth, the finances, the everything, the building, the the everything of a church, he or she feels that a lot. But because we are one in marriage, I ended up feeling that, uh, not necessarily knowing what to do with it. But um, so that was my little quick experience. But you guys taught.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

Tell me what I would have had something in the beginning because Joe is so funny. I love that we're hosting this because we start out so different. Every part of our life from where we pastor to everything is so different. Because Scott was actually a professor at Southern Nazarene University, and our first pastor was in Dallas, Texas. Well, Richard was in Church of Nazarene, and it was a church of 600, which no one should have their first church. You should not fail in front of 600 people, right? But the transition was massive. We just had our fourth. So we had four kids under eight of this large church with huge expectations that we'd come to everyone's house every Sunday. If you know Texas, you're gonna go to people's homes, and my kids would act perfect. Um, or people would say to hire a babysitter. We were poor, we could not afford a babysitter to go eat dinner with church people. Yeah, but the the biggest surprise for me was a lady took called us and took Scott out because she said he didn't dress appropriately. And I was so offended. Like the mama bearing me was like, and she ended up being this sweet, sweet grandma type lady who really wanted to help us, and he probably did look bad looking back on it. Um, but that was a shock for me that they cared, and then I was told for the first time I didn't dress appropriately, and as a staff spouse, no one even I don't even know if they knew I was there or wasn't there or whatever, and they didn't comment on my kids either until my husband was a senior pastor. Yeah, so it was a huge shock for me. Um, and there were so many beautiful parts, but I will say it was a cold bucket of water at first. Like, what who talks about this? And again, from not having grown up in the church, I didn't expect any of that.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

So that that is uh we've had something similar uh at our church plant in Kentucky, which was the first time we were lead pastors. Somebody wrote Kevin a letter that they thought it was inappropriate that we drove a minivan because that's luxurious. Oh my. Like, oh, I I did not ever consider my minivan luxurious, and it's a necessity because we have so many kids. But uh, you do get put in a spotlight that whether you want it or not, people know a lot about you and learning how to embrace that's tough. I think the other thing that was shocking to me, and this is you guys are gonna laugh, but it's the truth. But when we were youth pastors, I thought we were the hardest working person on staff because we had long hours, we'd go to lunch with the kids, and I thought this senior pastor just gets to roll in on Sundays, give his message, and peace out. And I know you're giggling because when you're not in that role, you don't understand everything else that comes with it. Um, so that that was a little shocking. I thought, we're gonna, this is gonna be a piece of cake. We're gonna have all kinds of time. We just have to show up to preach. It's gonna be great. Yeah. But you get you get a little brainwashed once you're in a different role to think, uh, we're the ones doing the real work here.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Yeah. Well, we were at the church already for um nine years before we became senior pastors. So it the I would say the hardest part about the transition was like how our role changed with all of like our friends, that we were like all in the same like boat, but now it was different. Um luckily we had created like the family atmosphere like that we like do for our staff. Um, so there wasn't like there was talking about or any comparison kind of thing. Um, but it was hard of like, oh no, what's my role now and what do I do? Um, but the expectations to me is a huge one because the first time we got like announced or whatever, the DS wife gave me this like cute little bag. It's like all florally and like pink, and it has like um note cards like that say like H on it. Like, here's all your thank you notes because you're gonna have to write so many and you're gonna have to do all of these things. And I like I literally like to this day, the staff would die laughing at this clip because my face went, What am I supposed to be doing? What up? I was like, I didn't even like writing think you notes. I was like, hold on, like, do I have to do all of these? Like, I literally was on like having this like moment like in front of everyone. I was like, hold on, I was like, I'm the kids' pastor, I've been the kids pastor, and I've been able to do what I do, and now I have to be like, This is a whole different hat you want me to put on. You know what I mean? I'm like, before we were both just staff, like you know what I mean? So I was like, oh no, I had just gone through what I had to be to be on staff for now, and now it's a whole new job. And I was like, what in the world? Yeah, we've had the comments. Uh, our daughter got one comment, she had a hole in her jeans, like it was not even like a big thing. They're like, Oh, well, I can't believe your dad like has a hole in jeans. We can go buy you jeans if you can't afford jeans that have holes. I was like, feel hurry, bring them on. Yeah, they're more expensive than the ones you're gonna buy me.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

Yeah, Sophie had that same comment just a few years ago, and I just wanted to punch the lead, but I didn't.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

A couple years ago.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Yeah, crazy. I've had so many, so many little things said to me throughout the years, and so we started every all four of us started out differently, right? In the in the lead pastor situation, from planning to small to larger, medium, whatever it was, the the church situation. And uh so we literally grew into different where the Lord led us from our first small church to uh another church, a church in crisis, kind of, and then another church, and it kind of uh the the flock got a little bit larger different times, and uh some came with staff that we inherited, and some the church grew into, oh, we can now afford staff kind of thing. So we we grew into it differently, obviously, than many of you. Um, I don't obviously, again, there's nobody out there teaching lead pastors how to have staff correctly. All you know is your own experience, right? How important this staff experience is because when you do, when the Lord does lead you into being a lead pastor, all you go back to is, at least for us, let me say that, we just went through the files of our brain, like, okay, well, we don't want to do that, that, that, or that. But we do want to do this, this, this, and this, you know, or whatever. And uh, so we just tried and the Lord graciously helped us. Um, you know, we it it was just very different. But I say all that to say this, to ask you this. Um, and maybe Dana already hit on it a little bit, but how did your relationship from being the lead pastor spouse to the staff pastor spouse or staff, how did that internally change?

SPEAKER_00 11:27

I'm at a different table now of like conversations I'm hearing and what I'm seeing, yeah. Um, that I had no idea was even like a thing. Does that make sense? So we're like, oh, like even like the first Sunday we get home and uh the immediately the executive pastor is like, okay, here's tithing offering, we're able to pay everyone and do all this. And I was like, oh, I never thought about that. Like, we now have to make sure all the other staff is getting paid and things like that. So now I was like, I'm looking at the rest of the staff, and we're like before I'd be like, we need more help, we need to hire someone in, we need to do this. Like, I could solve problems at this level, but I didn't know half the stuff up here. So I'm solving problems at a level that I actually don't have all the information. You know what I mean? And so for then to go back and realize, like, oh, like this is so much bigger than what, like, kind of what you were saying, Bethany, like you don't know everything that was happening. Like, we've never had to make sure, like, my best friends on staff, I never had to make sure their family got paid and everything was okay. You know, I mean, like, never did that cross our minds that we had to worry about that.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

I think for me, you know, when you're on staff somewhere, uh, you can complain and it's not your problem because somebody else is in charge. Um, and then all of a sudden something shifts, and any complaint you hear, there's a little bit more of a sting to it when you know that that your spouse is the one that's in charge. And, you know, I will say, first of all, I don't want anybody to think that I have it figured out because 20 years in, I'm still very much growing and figuring out the best way to lead with my spouse. Um, but something shifted in my mind, and especially because when we were church planners, we still could be in critique mode. Because if you've ever church planted, you have to get home and say, okay, what went well? What could we do better? Um, and then Kevin took his first pastoring role in Beaver Creek, Ohio, and it was an established church. And I stayed in that critique mode, not to be mean. I just was like getting home going, okay, here's what I saw that we could do different. And I realized very quickly that he didn't need that from me. Um, he gets that from everybody else there, especially at a church that's been around for a hundred years, they have opinions. They're going to tell him their opinions. Um, and all of a sudden, God kind of spoke to me that I was to become Kevin's biggest cheerleader. And so when he got off the stage, it was the best sermon he has ever given in his life. And I say it genuinely. And then when we get home, even if I have thoughts or opinions, I tried to keep my mouth closed because it's not what he needed to hear from me at that moment. So I my role shifted from, oh, that could have been better. Oh, we could have done this, to, you know what, this is great. And what you're doing is amazing, and I'm glad to be a part of it, and really tried to shift my role into encourager. Am I perfect at it? No, sometimes I still let it slip. Um, but just my role needed to shift. And and also that the church takes cues from me and from all of you that are lead pastors' wives. Uh if the lead pastor's wife face doesn't look like she's enjoying service, people know, like it it bleeds out. So just trying to be positive and encouraging when I can is my goal.

SPEAKER_02 14:46

Yeah. So let's talk about let's talk about friends. We've all talked about even in the episode prior to this, about needing people, even being a staff pastor spouse. But now, as we're talking about being the lead pastor spouse, uh, you know, it's it's just a little different as we all are trying to explain and what we have felt and what we are living. I still believe you can have friends in the church, but as Dana so beautifully said, I think there's a time, especially when that, you know, time comes where you become the lead pastor spouse. There's a there's a growing of boundaries that um and maybe discipline uh, you know, for what you are should say, what you shouldn't say, you know, all of that kind of thing, even with dear friends that you love to go have coffee with within the church or whatever. Um talk to me about that. Um what what's been your experience being the lead pastor spouse and your friends within the church? And we know, we definitely all know, I think, and you can speak to this as well. You gotta find your people, you know, that know you. Uh, and I think that's how we found each other too, just because, you know, we're we were living the same life. We didn't have to explain the pressures, the the worries, the anything. We just we kind of got each other because we were all doing the same thing. Um, but tell me a little bit about all that.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

So I grew up in a pastor's home and my parents uh they were the type that every Sunday we invited three new families over to our house for a home cooked meal. And I have laughed so hard because if I invite you after a Sunday, give me your Taco Bell order because there is no home cooked food at the house. I could not be more opposite than my mom in that sense. Uh, but we'll eat. I just can't tell you what. Um, but I I watched my parents um who pastored beautifully. My dad is the most caring shepherd I know, but they were always very cautious about friends because they didn't want to have a click. And I feel like if I could explain ministry the best, it is how do I tightrope walk between the line of not being excluded and clickish, but also allowing people to be in my lives or in my life. Yeah. Um, because I don't want to exclude, I don't want people to feel, but I also I'm human and I need a friend. Uh so it's messy. Uh one of my very best friends here, her husband's on staff. Okay, well, that makes it so awkward. If something happens at work, it's like this elephant in the room between us, and we have to talk about it and communicate and say this is hard. And um, but it doesn't mean I'm not gonna have a friend. It just means I have to approach it differently. And the other thing that uh that Kevin has to remind me of, unfortunately, is that whether we like it or not, as spouses, our voice carries a weight that we didn't sign up for.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

So I have to be very cautious how I choose my words because if I say something, somebody also might think that's Kevin's opinion just because I said it. Um, which I think I have great opinions, you know, don't we all? You do. But I also just have to be really cautious because I could do a lot of damage by sharing my opinion or frustration about a staff member, about something going on at the church that isn't how Kevin would speak about it or how he feels. So I just you just have to be cautious, but I'm all for having friends.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

I would say the same. Um, I always describe it as a big cake, like a wedding cake. Uh, so I like tears that you're on, and as like it goes up higher and higher, your tiers get smaller and smaller. Um, is the way like we've always described it. And uh there's very few people gonna be on that top tier with me. That is like my people, like it is David, it is my children, it is like my bestie. Like, you know what I mean? Like, that's it. Um, the next tier down is gonna be like who I allow to like speak into my life, you know what I mean? And that will um mentor me, or um that I feel like I'm like God's put them in my life to help mentor. So that would be like that next tier of where I'm really gonna um think a lot of our staff will live on that uh tier there because I feel like at that time God's put them on that tier, you mean like of just like that's where um it just has helped my brain see boundaries, like do you mean? Uh but that next level down is where I'm a little bit more cautious. Like it took me years to be okay with like who I am. Um, but I never meet one-on-one with anyone, like outside of like church. Like, I don't know, I'm crying, but um, God is just something that I have to do because I know my heart and I know I'm on a bear, and I know I will um everyone is wanting like my time because I'm married to David, not because like does that make sense? Or like wants to know David's thoughts or this. So um it is a way like it was with even a staff member that this happened, and it was years ago, and I was like, I will never be what I want in a room with someone that is not my top tier. Like, do you mean like that's just not gonna happen? Um, so but I bring other people in and it allows me to be able to um be real about who I am, but also have someone to be like, hey, like they're gonna see this this way or whatever, and just kind of be like a sounding board or I don't know. Um, that's just something I've had to do because I it is very important to me that I keep that like um like David and his stuff very like private or kids. Oh no, I'm crying.

SPEAKER_03 20:36

It's okay. I'm happy mad stuff. You're right. It's okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

No, well, I I think it's important too, Dana, that you said that that's what you do because I do think there's seasons that that that you do have to set boundaries and protect. I I'm actually in a different season right now that God kind of convicted me to for me, I do still meet one-on-one. I understand why you don't, but I never want to be in a place where I feel like I'm too big or I can't. So for me, my conviction has been recently that I still have time for the college student that comes to me on Sunday. Now, again, have to be super cautious what I share, make sure I'm pouring in and speaking wisdom. Um, but in your season and what you're experiencing right now and your personality, and I think that's why this podcast is important to realize we're all created differently. God has created us in different ways, shapes, and forms. And um, you you just have to figure out what's gonna work best for you.

SPEAKER_03 21:36

You do need to take into consideration your personality. That is so key. Some of us are extroverts, some of us are introverts, some of us are in between. How do you refuel? Um, because I'm even thinking, I've always had good friends, but I could count them on my fingers. Um, and currently, Jill and I were talking right before this that this is the loneliest season of ministry I've ever been in in my life.

SPEAKER_04 22:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Um, and her too. I just think it's different. But my problem now is when I think I have a friend, they just want to talk to things and hoping Scott will get the information. And I had a really good friend that I love to fish with. And then the last three times is all she was talking about was stuff I knew in my heart. She just is hoping I go home and tell Scott, which the first time I did, and the next two times, and then I just don't fish with her because you're like, oh, she's not really my friend. And so being seen and feeling valued, I kind of want to transition to that. How do you lose, how do you not lose yourself in walking beside this call and still keep your healthy identity of who you are and loving ministry, if that makes any sense?

SPEAKER_00 22:44

I feel like it started with that whole like I do not me one-on-one, is because I know I can't be everyone's best friend. So everyone will tell me, like, 25 people think you're they're your best friend. I'm like, I know, but my job is to connect them and get them their best friend because I can't be everyone's best friend because I am extreme extrovert. And when we're together, we're gonna be besties and we're gonna talk nonstop and have fun. But when I'm not with you, I'm gonna be present with whoever I'm with. But when I would meet with people, like we would go out and then they would want to be besties. I'm like, I love all of you, I just can't be who you're asking me to be. So I that more who I bring with me is who I feel like God has told me who to connect them with, whether it's in a ministry or whether it's another volunteer or whatever. But I feel like the Lord has like used that to like kind of because I do carry it. Like I'm like, I know people like I have besties and I'm not that needy of I don't need to talk to you every day or hang out with you. But when we do see each other, we will be just like we saw each other last time. I don't, I'm not, I don't need you to remind me that you love me and all that. I got all that. Does it make sense? I'm just not needy like that. But with um other people, I know that they are, and I know I can't be it. So knowing that I see the problem, I can't fix it makes it like that. That's the burden that I have a hard time carrying. So I'm like, okay, so I gotta find someone that I know is also in that same season that vote. So like I feel like my connector part helps me like navigate, like, I'm gonna get you your people. I just can't be your people. You know what I mean? And that like protection of like what you were saying of like the friendship thing.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

I think um just remembering who I am, you know, I'm I'm a mom of four. And you know, Debbie and Scott also had four similar in ages. And I know Kevin and I, some of our most valuable time we have ever spent was about an hour and a half in a cruise ship lobby, picking their brains, saying, tell me everything we should and shouldn't do because because we love and respect them and their kids are awesome, and we want our kids to be awesome too. So, so I I think remembering um sometimes the pressures of ministry can get strong, and I can lose sight of being a mom and realize that, oh, I'm trying to make everyone else happy, yet I'm not showing up for my kids. And that's embarrassing to say, but I feel like we've all probably had that thought at one point or another. Um, so remembering that I'm a mom, that God's placed me in this season uh for a reason and that I'm supposed to do something. But the other thing that I always keep forefront is um somebody recently said this in a sermon that your what is your main source of joy? Is it your church bubble or is it people who don't know Jesus yet? And also, what is your main source of anxiety? Is it your church bubble or is it people who don't know Jesus yet? And I was like so convicted by that because I walk in on Sunday mornings and I think, make eye contact with everybody, say hi, I gotta look engaged. Like, and it's not fake, it's me just going through the checklist of my brain. Did I did I do this? Did I do that? I'm hosting on stage, did I get everything right? And then God kind of just turned it on me and said, Bethany, where is more of your stress coming from? Is it all these church things, church bubble, church people, or is it about somebody who doesn't know me yet? And I was like, oh, so convicting. And and that's how I stay grounded. And in regardless of the size of your church, regardless of the size of your staff, regardless of the size of your family, God has placed you where you are, not just to shepherd a church, but also to reach the lost. So that's that's I just have to continuously remind myself is that I have a job to do, and that's just to keep building the kingdom.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Um, let's just switch gears to thinking about for those that are listening. Um, just as you said, it doesn't matter the size of your church uh that your spouse is leading. There's we all the pressure is even. You know, uh Easter Sunday morning, what Christmas Eve, the the whole big things, you know, and even big events that you have, whatever they are, the pressure is even. Whether you have a hundred people coming or you have 5,000 people coming, the pressure is even. Um so I thinking about that pressure that we really didn't sign up for, we just fell in love with our spouse, you know, kind of thing. Um how how do you guys manage that? How have you managed it?

SPEAKER_01 27:15

How do you manage it? So I think the first thing that uh again, this I'm being really blunt. So I hope everybody just understands that it is. Yes, okay, because I'm kind of unfiltered and I'm being really real with you. But like uh something that I found for me, and I Kevin and I just talked about this yesterday, is uh sometimes we'll have a great Sunday. And yesterday I was praying with a woman, she decided to get baptized. I went out into the lobby, I changed my clothes, I came in and I baptized her. Like phenomenal God's doing amazing things. And then I got home and I'm scrolling on Facebook and I see other churches around us, and I'm like, all of a sudden I kind of had this pit in my stomach of like, oh wow, it looks like they did something really cool. And it becomes this like comparison game. It's the worst and it's embarrassing to admit. And I lose sight of what God is doing because I'm putting us against other churches, which is crazy because we're all building the kingdom and have the same message. So for me, when that happens, if something on social media all of a sudden puts a negative thought in my head, it's time for me to delete social media for a little bit. And I'm not one that can give it up totally. Some of you are amazing and have never gotten on it. Um, I have my reasons, but I know that something's not right in my spirit. If I leave a service after baptizing a woman and her giving her life to Jesus, to then going, oh, I'm frustrated, or so-and-so left our church and posted a picture at a different church. And I'm like, like, there's something wrong with my spirit, and I need to check it and set up some boundaries and guardrails to keep myself from going there.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

I would say I don't really have too much of the pressure. I don't feel like I get to me, I love um, like I love that I get to do ministry. Like I don't ever, but it maybe it's my ADD and I just I've already moved on from something. But I don't actually normally like compare or nitpick or any like the thing that I would say that is the biggest struggle is um wanting everyone to feel and think like me in industry. Does that make sense? Like, I want everyone to be like, no, this is the greatest thing you ever get to do. Like you get paid to literally love people. So sometimes my frustration is I'm a little too much of like, like, wait, why is this not the greatest thing that's ever happened? Like, Jeremy, like I um, I don't know, like that's probably my biggest is I feel like I'm like, even like some staff, and I'm like, wait, are you complaining about getting to work at church and get to do this? Like, Jeremy, I'm like sometimes a little too mama bear with them, like, wait, like, you get to do this kind of thing. So I feel like that's probably my biggest struggle of um people not realizing it or getting lost, like when you said, like you lose yourself. I'm like, it's hard for me to be like, we gotta get you back. Like, do you mean and not just go into like team huddle mode of like we got this, get your gay face on, let's go, kind of thing. Um, I have to like bring people and know that I gotta bring them where they're at and like actually let them see it and not just know that they can go zero to ten like me. Like, do you mean and be like, no, like I don't want to do this, but if you want to do it, then I'm all in and I'm gonna get excited and go do this. It's hard for me to feel like sometimes the you have to drag people along with you. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 30:36

Yeah, which Dana, I want to ask this. I just hit me that all four of us are very active in our spouse's ministry. So, what do we say to the spouse who really isn't but and doesn't feel called to do that and feels totally left out because Dana just said, What? What are you thinking?

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Not everyone is as excited to do that.

SPEAKER_03 30:56

No, and I'm sure there's some out there they're probably not listening truthfully because they don't want to take the information. So maybe they're not in the audience. But if they are out there listening and someone happened to forward this, what would you say to help them when the pressure we just talked about is real and they don't even want this life or this living beside the call?

SPEAKER_00 31:16

Yeah, I would say to navigate, get rid of false expectations and stop believing in um like I feel like so many times we're apologizing for uh because people are feeling it that we're validating it, that it's real. We're like, I want to validate your feelings, but I'm not gonna validate something that's not true. You know what I mean? And so I think a lot of times we've living in this false narrative that it's so hard and it's so um like we only focus on the heart. Does that make sense? I'm like, but like biblically, that's not what we're supposed to do in everyday life, whether you're in ministry or not. Like that's just not our um, we're not supposed to live in the heart. Does that make sense? So I um and granted, I know I'm a like the seven who's all excited and extrovert. So it is hard for me to be like, hey, how do I get you excited when you don't actually believe that it is an exciting thing? You know what I mean? Like that's where I feel like so. To me, it's just one step at a time. Like, get involved, be all in, and then if then if you still don't feel it, then then maybe that's something that you need to have a conversation with the Lord and figure out like what your role is. But if you keep moving forward and believe and put people in your life that are excited about it and do see the importance of like the support and the doing it together and things like that, um, it's kind of like show me your friends, I'll show you your future. Like who you're like who's mentoring you and telling you that, or it's like a couple that's struggling. We're like, Well, who are you hanging out with? Are you hanging out with other like divorced couples? Because you will end up divorced. Are you hanging out with couples that are like thriving and have gone through hard times but don't care and they're gonna put the work in and they're they're going to stick together and do the hard work? Um, to me in ministry, that's who are your people? Like, who is with you to create that excitement? Who is with you to show you um what it's like to be a couple that loves doing ministry together and is supportive?

SPEAKER_02 33:19

You just brought a thought to my mind, Dana, when you're talking about all that, but uh you know, there's a lot of let's just be honest, lead pastor spouses and the other spouse, the the marriage that that is struggling. It's a whole nother podcast.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

Yeah, it's a whole nother that's on the docket.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Yeah, marriage for sure. I I do want to add just really quick, because uh God has shifted my thinking on this a little bit because I I probably would have used to been like, they're not all in. Shame on them. Um, we don't know what people have walked. Uh, there are people that are lead pastor spouses that have been horribly abused by the church, unfortunately. Or um, I've tried to shift my perspective because we have a couple staff members' spouses that they might not be there on Sundays, but I know their heart and I've gotten to know their story. Of one of them's a hairdresser. She's phenomenal at reaching people for Jesus in her hairdressing chair. And I think 10 years ago, if you would have asked me, I would have been like, you shouldn't be seeing clients, you should be at church. Like, I I think God has starting to sof my heart, soften my heart. Um, and again, I would it, I would encourage if you're not up for the pressures and this is just draining for you, um, find somebody that doesn't know Jesus and start pouring into them. Forget about the church for a little bit and see how God shifts and transforms your thinking. And maybe eventually that'll start coming together. But but I do think that that my heart has softened because I have seen so many people hurt. Um, and and it's not fair, it's not, they didn't sign up for this. Like you said, poor Debbie, she had no no clue what she was signing up for. Um but you've you've softened for the church, clearly, you know, and and God has shown you ways that the church has been wonderful as well as stinky, you know?

SPEAKER_00 35:20

All in doesn't mean you're it's like an attendance card. Like, do you mean all in means like, no, like you are in love with Jesus, you're in love with your spouse, you know that like your family is your first ministry. Like, that's all in to me is trying to figure out like, no, you're just like, and we all have seasons where we need more help and we're in like a like a valley and we need help, but you still can be all in with Jesus and have him like, does that make sense? So I think maybe it's clear expectation of what all in is too.

SPEAKER_03 35:49

And I think remembering that you're living beside the call you're married, like I always joke that why you call me a pastor's wife, I'm Scott's wife. Because if he was a plumber, you wouldn't say the plumber's wife, which he would never be because he can do no plumbing. But uh, I just always struggled with that. But I on your point, Bethany, I want to bring up a point too. Scott and I met with um a pastor who was on staff with someone and they were talking about the senior pastor throwing a chair and yelling and staff meetings. And I just want to say that's not okay. That is not a healthy church. And again, we're coming, Jill and all everyone here right today, or we have a Nazarene background. So um, for my non-denominational and different denominations, I don't know who to send you to. But if you happen to be in a Nazarene church and you have a pastor that is doing absolutely what's explosive and not acceptable, go to that district superintendent. That is not tolerated or allowed in the Church of the Nazarene. Um, we will help you get on a healthy staff and help that staff hopefully become healthy. But the church, uh, we are joking that the church doesn't know, the church doesn't know, and we are the church. So uh we want to get the help out there. So if you are in a situation with your spouse listening and you have an abusive husband, please grab a friend and get the courage to contact your district superintendent's spouse, um, start there or with a friend, because we want to get you in a healthy environment because those are not healthy environments.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

I would say even the marriage part, like with that, like ask for help for the district or whatever. Like our marriage is struggling, we can't afford therapy. We've heard that kind of stuff, or we don't know who to go to to tell that we're struggling. Like, go to someone to find help, whether it's the DS or your district or another pastor.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

And in our denomination, we do have funds available to help. We will get you the help that you need. Don't let the money keep you from that.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Well, and one thing we haven't even touched on, which again, I you can just put this in your note for the next one. But the men that we're married to, the four of us, they're wonderful, but they're not perfect.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

And sometimes, sometimes it's a little bit difficult. You know, if Kevin and I have a tense moment, it's sometimes hard for me to remember that he's also the pastor of my church that's leading me spiritually. And and navigating that, that that could be something with a spouse that isn't on board. Well, I know, I know who he is at home. He said this to me last night. Okay, first of all, again, abuse is different. Marital conflict is normal and and it's healthy to have marital conflict. It's learning how to navigate through that that will make you better on the other side. But I think we're in a unique role because there's times that Kevin will say something on stage and I'm like, need to work on that. And I obviously don't say that, but we're human and we all have we all have things that are like, this is hard when he's my spiritual leader and my church leader. And so fun to navigate.

SPEAKER_02 38:44

I've called this just from the beginning, just trying to learn what my life was all about way back when we started, of what in the world is going on, and nobody really understands my life and all that kind of stuff. And uh finally the Lord just gave me these words of it's just the most unique position in the church. Not even a position that, you know, it's not even a title, like a they call us the pastor's wife if you're a woman or whatever, but it's just like, okay, so what am I? Where do I fit? Who am I for? All that kind of stuff. And um, but the Lord definitely through all of these years uh has stretched me, corrected me, molded me, uh, and used me uh in ways now I'm crying, Dana, uh in ways that you know, uh never would have written down to say, oh, you know, this is what I want to do. You know. So anybody that's listening, and especially I know you guys is life, uh as a woman of God and as a spouse of a pastor and different things, uh, we have to be in the scriptures and we have to protect and we have to be disciplined in our own spiritual formation. Uh, and that that has been a game changer for me, even in my perspective of ministry. Um when I finally got disciplined to be in the word daily, game changer. Not that life went perfect by any means of imagination, but he started dripping his Holy Spirit into my soul every morning. And it just changes you. It changed, it has changed me. So as individuals, we have to take responsibility. And and I hope that somebody's listening saying, No, I need to start that. It it doesn't, you don't it's just a couple minutes a day. Just do it. He's waiting on you, which is so beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 40:38

As we end this episode, I would love for us to each say one positive thing that you love being the spouse of a pastor or ministry leader. And I'm just gonna start this past week. I went to brunch with these precious eight older women from our last church we were pastoring, and they gave me a digital frame uh to put pictures of my new grandbaby in. Uh, but I was just so grateful for the prayers. Like how many people are praying for us is a gift that cannot be weighed or counted. Um, and so there's so many more beautiful pieces to it than bad, but I do think it's important we have a space to talk about everything. But I would love to hear each of you share something you just absolutely love about being a ministry spouse.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

I love uh like we know the benefits of being in the pastor's family and like having um we know that we have so many people praying over us and love us and will be there to take care of us, and we it's such a beautiful thing that um God has like gifted us with. But now, like with our kids being old enough, before it like used to bother them, it was like conversations of they were like lived in the fishbowl and things like that. And now for them to look back and be like, oh well, we only got to do that because church family took care of us, or we were only given that opportunity because of like we were the pastors family who like this family wanted to make sure they like gifted us or blessed us, or so now for them to even see it, like has been like, okay, like it was kind of cool. Um, I don't know, just for them, it's their own now. Because before it was always like, Well, I didn't sign up to be a pastor's kid, like German, like I didn't do this. Um, and that God definitely shifted in my brain and all of theirs, like, no, you didn't sign up to be a pastor's kid, but the Lord knew we were pastors and put you in our family. So there's a really like you're supposed to be here. Like, he actually had you as that like the part as your calling.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

I yeah, I piggyback. I love that my kids are in this, even though there's days they don't love it. Um, I know it's a benefit because I grew up in it and I loved it. Um, I love getting to be my husband's biggest fan. And um even when I know things are really hard, maybe we have difficult staff we're dealing with, or I set the tone, not just in the rooms I'm in, but at home too. So I'm not always great at this. Don't hear me as perfection, I'm working on it. Um, but I can I can change his mood just by when he walks in the door in the evenings to say, hey, you're doing amazing. And this is hard, but you're doing so good. And it I love having that voice because it it makes a difference. It makes a difference in our church, it makes a difference. Um and God has given me a seat that I didn't earn uh to be able to pour into my husband, who's now pouring into others. So I I feel privileged to get to be here and am so thankful.

SPEAKER_02 43:36

I would echo every single one of your answers. Uh, we stand on prayers uh of the faithful, of the ones that loved us well. Like Dana was saying, we have been loved well, even by the grumpies sometimes. You know, we we have been loved well and we've been prayed for. But I think what rings the bell is being.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

the cheerleader uh or the one that has been asked to do different things uh to preach to call to all of that I'm sorry I'm crying but uh yeah it's it's a we whoever's listening into all of us we you are in a unique place and you can change the culture of your of your marriage of your of the room of your home and uh I don't do it perfectly either but I know we all give it our best shot and that's why I love our theology that it is with the spirit we're a work in progress and we're all in process so I love that we haven't done this before on an episode ending but I would love for us to end with a prayer for the spouses that are listening.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Let's pray. Father God, thank you so much uh for every listener who's tuned in God and for these three friends of mine uh first of all we want to thank you for the opportunity you've given us to serve you. Father we are thankful for our church bodies even the difficult ones in them. God I just pray right now that you would give every spouse listening a sense of encouragement a sense of peace a sense of strength. And God I pray that you would make your calling on their life clear even if it's not in ministry, God. I pray that you would place someone on their hearts that needs to know you. I pray God that you would bring healing where healing needs to take place. I pray that you would restore marriages that are broken and families that are broken. God we're so thankful for each person who is walking alongside the call with their spouse during this season. And Father we pray that you would continue to guide and walk with us every step of the way we love you and we praise you. In Jesus' precious name we pray. Amen.

SPEAKER_03 45:50

Amen friends thanks for listening to this episode of Beside Every Calling do us a favor and share it with another ministry spouse out there so we can help spread the word and bring this build this community. Thanks for listening. If this conversation felt a little too familiar like were they sitting in my living room this week familiar that's your sign. Text this episode to one ministry spouse who might need it today. And if this space feels like oxygen in your season, would you please take 30 seconds and leave us a review. It helps more spouses find this beautiful, sometimes overlooked but wildly important community. We'll see you next time on Beside Every Calling